【世事关心】极左派是民主党的灵魂吗?

【新唐人2019年03月05日讯】【世事关心极左派民主党的灵魂吗?

在美国,我们现在正在进行关于这个国家未来的热烈讨论,边界安全、堕胎、毒瘾、社会主义等等,很多时候这种争论被简化成了党派之间的口号大战,但这没有意义。我相信苏格拉底辩证法,这种正反双方努力做出最佳论理的方式,是更好的方式,这也可能是我们作为一个国家,能在我们面对的问题上得出合理方案的唯一方式。我不是说肮脏的政治不存在,但是当论辩足够深刻,真相便会显现,这是苏格拉底在2500年前做的事。在《世事关心》我们试图追寻他的足迹。这一期节目,我采访了Thomas B. Reston,《民主党灵魂》一书的作者。

标题:极左派是民主党的灵魂吗?(二)

Title: Does the Far-Left Element of the Democrats Speak To the Soul of the Party?

这个国家又重新对堕胎展开争论。纽约州的堕胎法律会对民主党不利吗?

The country has renewed the abortion debate. Will New York’s new abortion law backfire on the Democratic Party?

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“我不知道这个怎么说。这个很可能取决于你问谁这个问题。”

Tom Reston:“ I am not sure what to say about that. I think it probably depends on who you are asking.”

民主党人能为晚期堕胎找到最终的合理依据吗?

Can Democrats justify the ultimate rationale of late-term abortion?

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“所以这就变成了你是否认为母亲选择自己怎么生活的权利高于婴儿生存的权利。哪一个在道德上更重要呢?”

Simone: “So it comes down to whether you think a mother’s right to choose how to live her life is more important than the baby’s right to live. Which one is the moral imperative? ”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“人们会对这个案子感到不舒服。我认为民主党人应该听听反对者的意见,认识到关于堕胎有合理的道德考量。”

Tom Reston: “People are uncomfortable with it. And I think Democrats ought to listen to their opponents about this and realize there are legitimate moral questions about abortion.”

川普总统说美国绝不会成为社会主义国家。民主党人同意吗?

President Trump said America will never become a socialist country. Are the Democrats with the president?

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“你认为左派是民主党的灵魂吗?”

“Do you think the far-left element of your party speaks to the soul of your party?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“是的。”

Tom: “Yes, I do.  ”

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):欢迎收看《世事关心》,我是萧茗。在美国,我们现在正在进行关于这个国家未来的热烈讨论。边界安全、堕胎、毒瘾、社会主义等等。很多时候,这种争论被简化成了党派之间的口号大战,这没有意义。我相信苏格拉底辩证法,这种正反双方努力做出最佳论理的方式,是更好的方式,这也可能是我们作为一个国家能在我们面对的问题上得出合理方案的唯一方式。我不是说肮脏的政治不存在。但是当论辩足够深刻,真相便会显现。这是苏格拉底在2500年前做的事。在《世事关心》,我们试图追寻他的足迹。上一期我们的节目是Tom Del Beccaro的专访,他是《分裂年代》的作者,是共和党人。在这一期节目,我采访了Thomas B. Reston,《民主党灵魂》一书的作者。

Welcome to <Zooming In>. I’m Simone Gao. In this country, we are having a heated debate over the path to the future: border security, abortion, drug addiction, socialism and so on. Often times, such debates are reduced to short partisan soundbites connected or disrupted by commercial breaks. That is not helpful. I happen to believe that a Socratic dialectic in which both sides strive to bring out the best of their reasoning is a much better way, and perhaps the only way we as a nation can come to sound solutions to the problems we face. I know dirty politics exists beyond the realm of words, but when words go deep, truth also comes out. This is what Socrates did 2500 years ago. At <Zooming In>we try to follow in his footsteps. The last edition of <Zooming In> focused on Thomas Del Beccaro, author of <The Divided Era>, from the Republican side. In this edition, I interviewed Thomas B. Reston, author of “Soul of a Democrat.”

美国人民在堕胎问题上站在哪一边?

what side are the American people at on abortion?

2017年1月17日,纽约州通过了生育健康法案。法案修改了关于堕胎的法律。只要有一个专业医师的“合理和合情的判断”,法案允许堕胎,当“胎儿发育在24周以内,或是胎儿没有存活可能,或是堕胎对保护病人的生命和健康是必要的。”

On January 17, 2017, New York State passed the reproductive health act. The act amends the public health law regarding abortion. With a medical professional’s“reasonable and good faith judgment”, the Act permits abortions when “the patient is within twenty-four weeks from the commencement of pregnancy, or there is an absence of fetal viability, or the abortion is necessary to protect the patient’s life or health.”

但是,纽约州的法律并没有定义“健康”这个词。在Doe诉Bolton的案例中,美国的最高法院认为“医学判断可以基于多种考量:生理的、情感的、心理的、家庭的、以及女人的年龄,所有和病人的福祉有关的因素,所有这些因素都可能和健康有关。” 这让人们相信,任何这些因素都可以用作合理的理由,来堕掉一个会动的、有感知的婴儿。在一个广播节目当中被问及,当一个女人想要进行妊娠晚期堕胎时,会发生什么事情?弗吉尼亚州长Ralph Northam说:“如果一个女人在分娩中要求堕胎的话,如果母亲和家人要求,这个婴儿会被先抢救过来,然后母亲和医生再来讨论堕胎的问题。”,他还指出,这种手术只会发生在严重畸形或无法怀孕的情况下。

However, New York’s new law does not explicitly define “health”. In the Doe v. Bolton case, the U.S. Supreme Court held that“medical judgment may be exercised in the light of all factors : physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman’s age , relevant to the wellbeing of the patient. All these factors may relate to health. This leads people to think any of these factors could be used as a valid reason to abort a moving and feeling baby. When asked on a radio program what happens when a woman is going into labor who desires a third-trimester abortion, Virginia governor Ralph Northam said that in this scenario, “the infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.” He also noted that this kind of procedure only occurs in cases of severe deformities or nonviable pregnancy.

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“纽约州通过了法律,允许在一定条件下对会动的,有感知的婴儿进行堕胎。弗吉尼亚州长Ralph Northam说,婴儿可以在分娩过程中被堕胎。这些你怎么看?”

Simone: “New York passed a law to allow potential abortion of a moving and feeling baby. Virginia governor Ralph Northam said a baby could be aborted after labor. Where are you in all of these?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“哦,对民主党来说堕胎这个问题是一个非常困难的问题,一直以来都很难对付。现在我想,由于最高法院大法官的成员构成发生了变化,这个问题又冒出来了。在这个国家,现在很多人都相信最高法院或许真的会推翻‘罗诉韦德案’。这是一个由国家最高法院做出的、使整个美国堕胎合法化的判决。在我看来,最高法院是不可能推翻自己之前做出的堕胎合法化裁决的。我认为这个国家大部分人希望保留堕胎权,但是他们可能希望对适用堕胎的情形做出限制,而且是非常轻微的那种限制。但是由于争论的双方更担心最高法院会废除‘罗诉韦德案’,所以,我认为无论是反对堕胎的保守党人,还是赞成继续保留堕胎权利的自由主义者,他们都希望在自己政治上占多数的州,推动立法机构要么颁布更严格的堕胎法案,要么颁布比‘罗诉韦德案’更松的堕胎法案。因此现在的美国,关于这一话题你会看到必将掀起新一轮的大辩论。”

Thomas Reston: “Well, this question of abortion is a very difficult one for the Democratic Party. It has always been a difficult question for the Democrats to come to grips with. And I think it is now reviving again because of the change in the composition of the justices on the Supreme Court. There are many people in this country who now believe that the Supreme Court might actually overturn Roe vs. Wade, which is the national Supreme Court decision which legalized abortion throughout the United States. In my judgment, I think it’s unlikely that the Supreme Court is going to overturn its precedent legalizing abortion. I think most people in this country want to keep abortion rights, but they might want to cut back on the circumstances where abortions are available, ever so slightly. But as people on both sides of this debate become more afraid that the Supreme Court will do away with Roe vs. Wade,  I think both the conservatives who are against abortion and the liberals who favor continued abortion rights in each of the states where they have the political majority, they are trying to get the state legislatures to either enact more restrictive abortion laws or less restrictive abortion laws than Roe vs. Wade might have allowed. And therefore, I think you’re going to have a renewed debate about it in the United States now.”

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“堕胎对我来说不单单是政治问题。所以我想知道人们到底对堕胎有什么感觉。你是否认为未出生的婴儿也有生命权?我是说不可剥夺的生命权?”

“ Abortion to me goes beyond politics. I wonder how people really feel about it. Do you believe an unborn baby has the right to life? I mean, an unalienable right to life?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“ 你知道,我觉得人们被这个问题困扰著。围绕这一话题,方方面面的人士,在他们内心隐秘的深处都被这个问题困扰著。我想你会发现各种各样奇奇怪怪的投票结果。例如,我曾看到有投票结果显示,在美国所有社区中拉美人是最反对堕胎的。然而,统计表明在我们的少数族裔中,拉美人社区是采用堕胎最多的。所以,我觉得这个问题究竟是道德还是不道德,在美国,每个人的内心深处是非常挣扎的。要解决这个问题,我认为所有美国人对于自己对立面的人都应该试图去理解,更多的同情,而不能朝对方大喊大叫,什么难听说什么,那样实质上会让大家每一个人都陷入其中,且越陷越深。”

Thomas Reston: I think—you know, I think people are troubled by this. I think people on all sides of this debate, in the privacy of their own hearts, are troubled by it. And I think you find all kinds of odd polling results about it. For instance, I’ve seen polling figures that indicate that, of all the communities in the United States, Latinos are the most opposed to abortion. And yet the statistics show that the Latino community in this country is the heaviest user of abortions of any of our ethnic communities. So I think there’s a lot of deep grappling going on among individual Americans about the morality of this question. And I think in trying to reach a resolution to it, I think all Americans should be trying to understand and be more sympathetic to those on the opposite side of this debate from them rather than snarling at them and calling them names and essentially making everybody dig in even more than they’re already dug in.

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“我同意,我们应该听听两边的意见。但是对于每一个个体,当需要做出决定时,你没办法接纳两边的意见。所以这就变成了你是否认为母亲选择自己怎么生活的权利高于婴儿生存的权利。哪一个在道德上更重要呢?”

Simone: “I agree, we need to listen to both sides. But for each individual, when a decision needs to be made, you can’t accommodate both sides. So it comes down to whether you think mother’s right to choose how to live her life is more important than the babies’ right to live. which one of the two is a moral imperative? ”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“你看,这就是争论的问题。争论的两边都有强势的道德理由:未出生的小孩的权利,和母亲选择要不要把孩子生下来的权利。这是一个关乎冲突双方个人权利的问题。 ”

Thomas Reston: “Well, you see, this is the problem with the debate. And I’m not—this—both of these sides of the debate have a strong moral claim: the right of the unborn child and the right of the mother to decide whether she wants to carry the baby through or not. It really gets down to the rights of individuals that come into conflict.”

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“当你要做出选择时,哪一方的意见更有道德约束力?”

Simone: “When you have to choose, which one is imperative?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“说到美国人现在的意见,我认为绝大多数民主党人会说他们相信,在绝大多数情形下,不是所有情形下,当然是在怀孕早期,母亲选择的权利相对更重要。怀孕晚期时候,就是另一个问题了。怀孕晚期的时候人们就越来越难选择了。我不认为最高法院会推翻对Roe诉Wade一案的判决,但是人们会对这个判决的前途感到不安。我认为民主党人应该听听反对者的意见,认识到关于堕胎有合理的道德考量。”

Thomas Reston: Well, as a matter of where Americans are these days, I think most people in the Democratic Party would say to you that they believe, ultimately, under most circumstances, not all circumstances, but under most circumstances, certainly in the early part of a pregnancy, it is the mother’s right to choose which should predominate over the other side of the debate. Toward the end, I think that’s a different question. It becomes more and more troublesome for people to sort out that question toward the end of a pregnancy. And I don’t think the Supreme Court is going to wind up overturning Roe vs. Wade, but people are uncomfortable with it. And I think Democrats ought to listen to their opponents about this and realize that there are legitimate moral questions about abortion.

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“你认为这个法律会伤害、还是会帮助民主党?”

Simone: “Do you think this law will hurt or help the Democrats?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“我不能回答全国的情况。我认为,人们担心对Roe诉Wade一案的判决会被推翻。我认为在不同的州,人们已经对此作了准备。如果原判被推翻,在很支持堕胎的州,我认为你会看见规则放宽。在人们很反对堕胎的地方,我认为你可能会看见对堕胎进行更多限制。但是像我说的,我不认为原判会被推翻。我认为昨天首席大法官罗伯茨先生的投票,显示了他对最高法院推翻这个案子的谨慎态度。”

Thomas Reston:“ I can’t really answer that on a nationwide basis. I think, again, what is happening is people are afraid that Roe vs. Wade will be overturned. And I think in various different states people are trying to get ready for that. And in states which are very pro-abortion, I think you might see a loosening of rules. And in places where people are very much against it, I think you might see a restricting of the rules on abortion if Roe vs. Wade is overturned. But as I say, I don’t believe that it will be overturned. And I think the vote of Mr. Chief Justice Roberts yesterday indicated that he is very cautious about moving the Supreme Court too far in the direction of overturning Roe vs. Wade.”

接下来,美国正在成为社会主义国家吗?

Coming up, Is America becoming a socialist country?

美国正在成为社会主义国家吗?

Is America becoming a socialist country?

新当选的众议院议员亚历山大·奥卡西奥·柯缇玆,是美国民主社会党的成员。柯缇兹和拉希达·特拉伊布(Rashida Tlaib)是该团体首次进入国会的成员。她鼓吹一个标榜所谓“进步主义”的政纲,其中包括全民医保、联邦就业保障、有保障的家庭休假、建立绿色新政、废除美国移民和海关执法局、免费公立大学和商贸学校、可再生能源基础设施项目,以及对1000万美元以上收入征收70%的边际税率。

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the newly elected representative from New York, is a member of the Democratic Socialists of America. Ocasio-Cortez and Rashida Tlaib are the first two members of the group in Congress. She advocates for a progressive platform that includes Medicare For All, a federal jobs guarantee, guaranteed family leave, establishing a Green New Deal, abolishing U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, free public college and trade school, infrastructure projects for renewable energy, and a 70% marginal tax rate for incomes above $10 million.

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“一些新当选的民主党议员,如亚历山大·奥卡西欧·柯缇玆,相信社会主义。那么,您认为民主党会向左走得更远吗?这是在帮助还是在损害民主党?”

“ Some newly elected democratic house representatives, such as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, believes in socialism. So do you think the Democratic Party is moving far left? Is this helping or hurting the democrats?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“我认为比起上一代人,民主党在过去的几年里在缓慢地左倾。民主党基本上从20世纪50年代开始,就被一群中间派政治家所控制。他们对政策和立法的细节非常感兴趣。他们在民主党中占据了很大的优势。过去的两三年里,民主党的新一代领导者在挑战这个传统群体的统治。国会女议员Ocasio-Cortez是左翼人士之一,她说:‘看,美国的全国政治辩论已经停滞太久,这个国家的富人和权势阶层一直在从体制中获利,而美国的一大部分人民被抛在了后面。我们现在必须把注意力转到如何改变现状上来。’她是一个很有天赋的政治家。我认为她正在改变这种局面。还有一些比中间派更保守的人,他们现在也在民主党内站起来说:‘我们应坚持保守,民主党也需要这样做。’因此,我认为民主党内部正在进行真正的辩论,这是我们这一代人以来的第一次,她也是这场辩论的一部分。我不认为民主党会进一步向左发展,我想接下来,我们将在党内进行一场推心置腹的讨论,讨论我们自己的定位,以及我们应该对我们的国家向前发展做些什么。”

Thomas Reston: I think it’s true that the Democratic Party in the last several years has slowly been moving further left than it had been for most of the last generation. I think that the Democratic Party, essentially since the 1950s, has been dominated by a centrist group of politicians who are very interested in the details of policies and the details of legislation. And they have exercised a very heavy dominance over my political party. In the last two or three years, there have arisen new centers in the Democratic Party to challenge the domination of this traditional group. And Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez is one of them on the left who has said, look, the national political debate in the United States for too long has remained stuck in a situation where the rich and powerful in this country have been getting most of the benefits out of the system, and large segments of the American people have been left behind. And we have to turn our attention now to trying to redress this balance. And so I think she is a very gifted politician. And I think she is changing the debate. There are other people, more conservative than the centrists, who are also rising in the Democratic Party now to say wait a minute, we’ve got very conservative instincts which we think also need to be served by the Democratic Party. So I think there’s a real debate that is now emerging inside the Democratic Party for the first time in a generation, and she is part of that debate. I don’t think that it is a foregone conclusion that my party is going to move farther to the left. What’s going to happen is we’re going to have an honest debate inside the party about who we are and what we should be saying about our country moving forward.

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“您认为民主党的最左派代表了党的灵魂吗?”

“ Do you think the far-left element of your party speaks to the soul of your party?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“是的。我认为,民主党在美国历史上和今天的使命,其实质是为体制外的人士而战。无论是宗教领域的体制外人士,还是经济学意义上的弱势群体,还是因地域、种族或其它原因而被现有体制排除的人士,许多民主党人都把我们的政治看作是体制外和体制内之争。我认为你们现在看到的是民主党内部重新下定决心,再次为各种体制外人士的利益服务。我认为对民主党来说这十分有益。”

Thomas Reston: Yes, I do. I think that the essence of the mission of the Democratic Party in American history and today is the fight for the outsider. Be it an outsider of religion or an outsider because of economic status or an outsider because of geography or because of race or for whatever reason that many Democrats see our politics as a fight between insiders and outsiders. And I think what you’re seeing now is a renewal of determination inside the Democratic Party to once again serve the interests of all kinds of outsiders. And I think that’s a healthy debate for the party to have.

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“您欢迎党内的极左分子吗?”

“ And you welcome the far-left element of the party?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“我欢迎他们来辩论。我一点也不畏惧辩论。我认为现在是成为这个国家的民主党人的大好时机,新兴的权力斗争正在上演,我很有兴趣看看他们会怎么样。民主党存在太久了,现如今只是为存在而存在了。我认为他们需要解决美国的根本问题,即公平问题。”

Thomas Reston:“ I welcome the debate. I am not afraid of the debate at all. I think this is a great time to be a Democrat in this country because of these emerging power struggles. And I’m very interested to see how they’re going to turn out. And I think the party has been too long just kind of keeping on keeping on. And I think they need to address these fundamental issues of fairness in America.”

2月5日,川普总统在他的国情咨文演讲中说,美国绝不会成为社会主义国家。

On February 5, President Trump pledged in his State of the Union that America will never become a socialist country.

川普(美国总统):“在美国,我们听到了实行社会主义的声音。美国是建立在自由和独立的基础上的,不是建立在政府强权,统治和控制之上的。我们生来自由,也会保持自由。”

Donald Trump: “Here in the United States, we are alarmed by the new calls to adopt socialism in our country. America was founded on liberty and independence, and not government coercion, domination, and control.   We are born free and we will stay free. ”

观众:美国万岁!美国万岁!美国万岁!

AUDIENCE:  USA! USA! USA!

川普(美国总统):“今晚,我们重申,美国绝不会成为社会主义国家。”

THE PRESIDENT:  Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.  

观众:美国万岁!美国万岁!美国万岁!

AUDIENCE:  USA! USA! USA!

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“总统说我们永远不会成为社会主义国家。您同意总统所说的我们永远不应该是一个社会主义国家吗?”

“ The president said we will never become a socialist country. Do you agree with the president that we should never become a socialist country?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“是的。我对社会主义的理解是,国家控制经济,国家控制商业。我反对这样做。我一直支持资本主义和自由企业。我认为这个国家99.99%的人也会拒绝社会主义。总统在他的国情咨文中提出这个问题是一种廉价的政治伎俩,因为这个国家没有人想废除自由企业制度。但我确实认为,撇开这些标签不谈,这个国家可以就公平和经济展开一场有益的辩论。我认为,在美国,公平对待我们经济中的所有人,与废除自由企业制度的这种疯狂想法是有区别的。”

Thomas Reston: “Yes. My understanding of what socialism is, is a state control of the economy and state control of business. And I don’t—I reject that notion. I have always been for capitalism and free enterprise. I think 99.99 percent of people in this country would reject that premise as well. I regard the president’s raising it in his State of the Union address as a kind of a cheap political trick because there is no one in this country who wants to do away with the free enterprise system. But I do think that—these labels aside—I do think the country could use a good debate about fairness and the economy. I think there is a difference between fairness for all people in our economy in the United States versus this kind of crazy idea of doing away with the free enterprise system.”

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“所以您认为我们并没有在变成一个社会主义国家?”

“ So you do not think we are on track to become a socialist country.”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“没有,变成社会主义国家就太荒唐了。”

Tom: “No, I don’t. I think that’s ridiculous.”

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“您不认为福利国家会导向社会主义国家吗?”

“ Welfare state is not a warm-up for a socialist country?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“不,我想不是这样的。我认为这是对事实的一种非常粗俗、简单化的描述。我们有过福利,从20世纪30年代起,我们就对那些深陷困境的人们提供福利与支持。那是75年前的事了。我们那时就已经有了这样的制度,在1950年代和1960年代,当时的政府提供更多的福利,当时正值美国自由企业经济扩张的灰色时期。我不认为照顾那些失业的人有什么不妥,或社区保证不让人们陷入困境、不能养活自己,有什么不妥。我认为这是美国社会应该做的一件事,这与限制人们拥有自己企业的自由无关。”

Thomas Reston: No, I don’t think so. I think that’s also a very crude, simplistic description of what is going on. We’ve had a welfare—we’ve had welfare and state support of those who are in deep trouble in this country ever since the 1930s. That’s 75 years ago. It has—we’ve had that system in place, an even more robust system in the 1950s and ‘60s than we have now of state support for welfare, which coincided with the gray period of economic expansion for free enterprise in this country. I don’t think that because you take care of people who are out of work, because the community expresses its determination to not allow people to step off the last rung of the ladder and fall into an abyss where they can’t support themselves or can’t find enough to eat, I think that is a proper thing for the American community to do. And I think it has nothing to do with restricting people’s freedom to own their own businesses whatsoever.

接下来,这堵墙不道德吗?

Coming up, Is “The Wall” immoral?

这堵墙不道德吗?

Is the Wall Immoral?

2月15日,国情咨文演讲10天之后,川普总统宣布了南部边境的国家紧急状态。他动用了总统行政权,挪用了几十亿美元来建墙。同时,他签署了一个拨款方案,包括了14亿美元的边境安全资金,足够建起55英里的边境栅栏。这个举动可能会面对法律上的挑战,在不久的将来法院可能会叫停该计划。

On February 15, ten days after his State of the Union address, President Trump declared a national emergency on the southern border, tapping into executive powers in a bid to divert billions for border wall construction. At the same time, he signed a funding package that includes just $1.4 billion for border security which is sufficient for building 55 miles of fences. The move is expected to face a legal challenge that could stall the attempt in the courts for the near future.

12月6日,佩洛熙说,总统要求的边境墙,是不道德的,即使墨西哥政府出钱也是如此。1月3日,在回答记者问题时,她说,边境墙是不道德的。这不是我们国家应该做的。

On Dec. 6, Nancy Pelosi said that additional barrier construction, as demanded by the president, would be “immoral still,” even if the Mexican government paid for it. On Jan. 3, in responding to reporters, Pelosi said, “A wall is an immorality. It’s not who we are as a nation.”

在国情咨文演讲中,总统说,唯一不道德事情,就是政客们什么都不做,而是继续允许更多无辜的人成为悲惨的受害者。有非法移民才是不道德的。

In his State of the Union address, the president said “The only thing that is immoral is the politicians to do nothing and continue to allow more innocent people to be so horribly victimized. It is immoral to have the illegal immigrants.

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“川普总统在国情咨文中说,把非法移民放进来伤害甚至杀害美国公民是不道德的。南希·佩洛西说建墙是不道德的。您认为究竟哪一边不道德呢?”

“ In his SOTU address, the President said it is immoral to have the illegal immigrants coming over to kill and harm the American citizens. Nancy Pelosi said it is immoral to build the wall. Which one is immoral to you?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“我认为这个问题的整个讨论方式都是错误的。我想我们得退一步讲,那样再讨论美国南部怎样加强边界安全,就大不一样了。如果揪住什么道德不道德的,相互指责,未必能讨论出个所以然来。显然,让那些会伤害我们公民的人不合法地进入美国,那是不可接受的。川普总统提出要在美国整个南部边境建一道墙,我认为这个提议可以说与美国的民族精神大相抵触。我认为应该折中一下, 政府必须得运转起来,继续前行。我不同意总统处理此事的方法,这场辩论主要是由总统,而不是由民主党人主导。这个问题事关国家利益,总统的处理方式不利于问题的解决。”

Thomas Reston:“ I think the whole way of discussing this problem is wrong. I think we have to step back and have a different kind of discussion about securing our borders on the southern side of the United States. I don’t think we’re necessarily getting anywhere with these charges of immorality back and forth. Obviously, it is unacceptable to have people coming illegally to the United States who harm our citizens. And I believe that the building of the wall, as proposed by President Trump, a complete wall across the southern border across the United States, is also sort of very much against the ethos of the American nation. I think there’s got to be a compromise about this. And the government has to be able to function and move forward. And I think the way the president has framed the debate, and he is by and large frame the national debate more than the democrats are. I think it is a very destructive way to set up a conversation about the health of the nation.  ”

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):发起一个关于南部边境安全问题的对话可能不是建设性的,但是这对话不是川普发起的,是佩洛熙发起的。她首先在去年12月说这个墙是不道德的,在1月又说了一次。然后川普才在2月的国情咨文演讲中做出回应。

It might be a destructive way to set up a conversation about the safety of our southern border. But it is not president Trump, but Nancy Pelosi who set up this conversation.  She first characterized the wall as immoral in December last year, and said it again in January. Then President Trump responded in his February State of the Union Address.

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“佩洛熙呢?她发动了这个不道德指控,把墙描述成不道德的。”

“ What about Nancy Pelosi? She started this whole immorality back and forth by describing the wall as immoral. ”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“我认为建墙违反了民族精神,这是我描述它的方式。我认为应该就加强边境安全提出具体建议,而不是使用那些非常具有煽动性的言辞。我认为如果民主党人简单的在全国的讨论中接受那些现有说法的话,结果不会好的。我们要用自己的方式来主导国家层面的讨论。”

Tom Reston:“ I think the wall is unamerican. That’s the way I would describe it. And I think the discussion should be what makes sense on the southern border rather than these very very inflammatory words. It seems to me that if democrats are simply buying into the terms has suggested for the national dialogue, it is not going to turn well for the democrats. We should be using our own terms to try to frame the national discussion. ”

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):“所以您两边都不赞成?”

“ So you disapprove both sides?”

Thomas B. Reston(《民主党的灵魂》作者):“我现在是这么认为。但是我想,主要是总统决定了国内政治讨论的基调。这些天来,我们讨论政治的方式更多地受到了总统的影响,而不是民主党人。”

Thomas Reston:“ I am. But I think the president is largely responsible for the tenor of the domestic political discussion in the United States. He, more than the Democrats, has framed the way we talk about our politics these days.”

萧茗(Host/Simone Gao):Reston先生的观点很有意思。总统本人,尤其是通过他的推特,还有新的坚定的保守派媒体,其规模和影响比起那些左倾的媒体来要小很多。但是,川普仍然坚定不移的在美国甚至国际媒体中扮演推动者的角色。他主导了每一次讨论,而反对派的媒体总是在对他做回应。你们怎么想?请发推特给我@ZoomingInSimone。也可以在我们的脸书页面或是Youtube频道Zooming In with Simone Gao上参与我们的讨论。下期节目再见

Reston brings up an interesting point. The president himself, especially thorough his tweets, and a newly robust conservative media are dwarfed in size by the left-leaning mainstream media. And yet, Trump remains the unmoved mover in American and even international media. He framed every discussion and the opposition media is always reacting to him. Let me know what you think by tweeting at us at @ZoomingInSimone. You can also join the conversation on our Facebook page and subscribe to our YouTube channel: “Zooming In with Simone Gao” . Goodbye until next time.

End

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Producer:Simone Gao

Writer:Joel Slaughter,   Simone Gao

Editors:Julian Kuo,  Bonnie Yu, Bin Tang,  Melodie Von, York Du

Narrator: Rich Crankshaw

Transcription: Jess Beatty

Translation:Greg Yang,  Xiaofeng Zhang, Bin Tang,  Frank Yue

Cameraman: York  Du

Special Effects:Harrison Sun

Assistant producer: Bin Tang,  Merry Jiang

Feedback:ssgx@ntdtv.com

Host accessories are sponsored by Yun Boutique

New Tang Dynasty Television

《Zooming In》

March,2019

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVWMVBg1RPrDlakdmbyTKBA

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